Long, Expensive, and Risky: How Demining of Agricultural Land Is Taking Place in Ukraine in the Second Year of the Major War
Photo by: Latifundist.com
More than a year has passed since our conversation about demining agricultural land with the founder of Feodal company Andriy Demianovych, and the creator of the military.feodal.online service and the head of the Association of Sappers of Ukraine, Tymur Pistriuha. What has changed during this time? A lot, say the speakers. The number of demining operators and the number of international partners and donors assisting in humanitarian demining have increased. The state has actively joined the work, and they promise to present the National Strategy for Mine Action by the end of the year.
However, the demining process itself remains time-consuming. What factors influence this? How is the calculation of the mined areas conducted? Why doesn't the country need 100 demining operators, and a self-equipped tractor for demining is not a very cool story? And what about black sappers — are time and money worth human lives?
Latifundist.com: Andriy, your service for submitting applications for demining — military.feodal.online — directly interacts with farmers. How has the collaboration with them changed over the year?
Andriy Demianovych: The awareness of agrarians has changed, in my opinion. Specifically, the attitude of agricultural enterprise leaders towards the problem: they no longer send their machinists into the field, hoping for luck. So, we see fewer incidents of explosions. There is now awareness in terms of expectations. Agrarians understand that humanitarian demining takes time, and they are willing to wait.
The most important thing is that hundreds of applications have been processed. Some areas have already been demined, while others are undergoing surveys. In general, our company has digitized all fields within the boundaries of occupied and de-occupied territories, we have accumulated the coordinates of each field with a high precision.
The total area for surveying fields in the deoccupied territories is 2.4 million hectares, but considering the 20-kilometer zone up to the frontline, 1.6 million hectares are available for non-technical survey (NTS).
Latifundist.com: I would like to clarify regarding mined lands. We currently see a lot of discrepancies in the numbers, even from government authorities. Why is that?
Andriy Demianovych: I don't want to criticize anyone, neither personally nor in terms of numbers. Many people approach the analysis and calculation of potentially mined areas non-constructively. Why? Because tomorrow he has a press conference and needs to provide some figure. Which one? What figure? The one that was available as of such-and-such date. I am, being directly involved in this, dislike such an attitude towards the figures. The whole world is watching us, including donors who fund operators of demining activities. So, when we have discrepancies in numbers, even from government authorities, it is not good.
There should be some overall strategy: how to calculate, which figures to provide to journalists for publication. The journalists don't care whether it's 15,000 square kilometers that need to be demined or more. They get the figures and write them. But it's important to understand that there are also rivers, swamps, forests, which probably will never be surveyed. It seems that in Croatia, 3% of the total land area is still considered to be hard-to-reach.
Latifundist.com: Tymur, in your opinion, where does such a discrepancy in figures come from?
Tymur Pistriuha: Firstly, the media should understand who can actually provide such figures at all. Currently, the Ministry of Economy has taken on the coordinating role. Technical issues should be disclosed by the national demining authority, whose functions are entrusted to the Ministry of Defense. It is precisely the one that provides official information that can be referenced. All other agencies, organizations, including mine, are not official sources of information.
Secondly, discrepancies exist due to different approaches to calculation. For instance, the State Emergency Service (DSNS) previously explained that they consider territories, including those under shelling. And this is logical. For example, there was shelling in the Lviv region, and they also added this local area. Water resources or temporarily occupied territories may also be included in the calculation.
And when we discussed this with the stakeholders, we concluded that the most accurate calculation would be the one that includes potentially hazardous territories and temporarily occupied territories, including Crimea. Therefore, as announced by the Ministry of Defense at the donor conference, Ukraine has potentially hazardous territories of 174 thousand square kilometers. This is not mined; it is potentially dangerous. It includes 14 thousand square kilometers of water areas.
Latifundist.com: Do you agree with the figure for agricultural land that Andriy mentioned?
Tymur Pistriuha: Andriy is an expert in this, so how can I disagree?
Andriy Demianovych: Let me explain how we calculated. We took the territory where combat actions took place and counted all the areas there. However, 1.6 million hectares is also an approximate figure. These are the areas suitable for non-technical survey. Another nearly 1 million hectares are in the buffer zone.
Latifundist.com: It seems that this 1 million is what they add to the likely mined areas. Because I often see in the media the figure of 2.6 million hectares.
Andriy Demianovych: Perhaps.
Latifundist.com: Alright, then tell us what has changed in the demining application process algorithm.
Andriy Demianovych: Nothing has changed.
Latifundist.com: How many applications are currently in the system?
Andriy Demianovych: We always have a curve that directly depends on the territory's de-occupation. After de-occupation, the number of applications immediately increased. Currently, there are around 300,000 hectares with coordinates, contacts, and all the circumstances of the events in the system. All this information is transmitted to the Mine Action Center (MAC), which coordinates the work of all demining operators. Additionally, we integrate data into the international humanitarian demining platform - IMSMA. This way, all licensed operators have access to all applications submitted through military.feodal.online.
What are the peculiarities? The applications that were submitted relatively long ago, for example, from a 20-kilometer zone to the front line, are no longer relevant because farmers, at their own risk, have processed the fields. Because they thought they were forgotten and no one would come. When deminers take these applications from the system and plan their work in a specific community, they are closed as irrelevant. In other words, deminers do not assign them a potentially safe status. The status of potentially safe territory is assigned only when the survey has been conducted, and no explosive items have been found.
Tymur Pistriuha: And here I would like to draw the media's attention. When operational measures were carried out in urbanized areas in Kyiv region last year...
Andriy Demianovych: ... the journalists wrote that the region was cleared, but without details — which settlements, critical objects, fields are included.
Tymur Pistriuha: Later, information agencies reached out to me and asked to confirm the information. But it is not my responsibility to do that.
Andriy Demianovych: So, once again for the media: in the demining process, there is the issue of surveying populated areas during the operational demining stage. This is when streets, kindergartens, apartments, and houses are surveyed. Fields are not surveyed as quickly.
Latifundist.com: Alright, has the time from submitting the application to the non-technical survey (NTS) shortened?
Andriy Demianovych: It's not so much reduced as the wave of applications has passed. As soon as the territories were cleared, we received a flood of applications. Everyone thought that work would start for them the next day. Now it's a bit easier because the number of demining operators and sappers has increased.
As for the timelines, it all depends on the circumstances. For example, a farmer can submit an application today for Mykolaiv region, where Demining Solutions operates, or for Kharkiv region, where FSD operates, and it may be taken into action tomorrow, with non-technical survey (NTS) starting within a week. Alternatively, it could be a buffer zone near Kherson, and no work will be conducted until the frontline shifts.
Tymur Pistriuha: Yes, it is necessary to consider the proximity to the front line. As the experience of Kherson and Kharkiv regions shows, within 20 km from the front line, everything is usually a continuous minefield.
Latifundist.com: Let's remind the agrarians of the stages of humanitarian demining.
Andriy Demianovych: The first stage involves a non-technical survey, during which deminers do not yet enter the field but survey the area, gather direct evidence, interview beneficiaries, and assign a status to the area. A document is then formed, verified by the Demining Center, and entered into the international system.
The next stage is the technical survey. It is conducted if the area is designated as hazardous. Deminers, equipped with metal detectors, search for dangerous objects, compile a report, and only then proceed with the clearance of the area—mechanical, manual, etc. This is also not a fast process. Reports are submitted gradually, and in the end, a state inspection arrives to assess the quality of the work. If everything is satisfactory, the transfer of land takes place.
Tymur Pistriuha: So, humanitarian demining ensures complete safety. The area becomes genuinely secure. It is the final stage. After this process, the land is officially transferred to the user. It happens not after operational, combat, or military activities, but specifically after humanitarian demining.
Latifundist.com: Why does it take a long time?
Tymur Pistriuha: Because it involves certain parties taking responsibility for the safety of the area. The ones responsible for ensuring the quality of the surveyed land are the demining operator and the state inspection. However, even when we transfer the land, we acknowledge residual risk because we check to a certain depth. Explosive objects from World War II may still be present at greater depths.
Latifundist.com: Who is covering the expenses for this?
Andriy Demianovych: Currently, it is funded by donors. This is a global practice. Hundreds of millions of dollars are allocated annually from the funds of various countries to demining operators. They allocate these funds to reputable companies with years of experience and strong expertise in the market. That's why I believe Ukraine doesn't need 100 operators. We need 10-20, but strong ones.
Latifundist.com: However, the more operators there are, the greater the competition is, which leads to lower prices for demining.
Andriy Demianovych: When the state coordinates the actions of dozens of operators with high work standards, quality equipment, professional personnel, and the ability to efficiently carry out these tasks, it is a scenario where everything is well-organized.
On the contrary, when working with 100 operators who opt for cheap metal detectors instead of ground-penetrating radar, and lower prices, it becomes a different scenario. In the reports, the donors will see who and how conducts demining. That's why we don't need cases where someone embezzled funds or performed subpar demining.
Latifundist.com: Tymur, how do you feel about the prospect of having 80 more competitors in the market?
Tymur Pistriuha: I agree with Andriy. Here, you can draw an analogy with buying milk. When you go to the supermarket, you already know the brands and the quality of their milk, even though the prices are more or less the same. It's the same in this market.
Latifundist.com: But competition is great.
Tymur Pistriuha: For instance, with one of the operators we collaborated with in Donbas, there were 250 deminers. Currently, it appears that their number has increased to 750. This threefold expansion is acceptable when you have a well-established and practised system for quality control, management, and oversight in place.
Andriy Demianovych: Let's model a situation where we have 100 demining operators in the market. A highly qualified sapper, firstly, will go where the salary is higher because he can afford to pay more. And secondly, he will go where they will dress him well, provide quality equipment, where he will have insurance and will drive a decent car. In other words, it's an all-encompassing package. There can be 20 companies in the market and 20,000 sappers if the processes are built correctly.
Tymur Pistriuha: Andriy, thank you for raising important issues. Our association has consistently strived for sappers to receive a decent wage. We initiated this process when we were working in Donbas. Unfortunately, at that time, I was unable to achieve it. Why is it important? Because when the donor provides funding for the next project, they might say, "Why do you have such a salary when other organizations have a different one? Let's cut it down". And we'll have to reduce it because it's an international organization where the budget, including a deminer's salary, is approved annually. And we might return to the times we had in Donbas.
Latifundist.com: Do we still have a shortage of operators, am I correct?
Tymur Pistriuha: Yes. But primarily, there is a shortage of sappers performing operational tasks. The scale of the tragedy is so significant that we won't overcome this problem quickly. This is a long-term process that hinges on funding and specialized training. Because to train an adequate number of deminers and deploy them to the battlefield takes a considerable amount of time.
Latifundist.com: In your estimation, how many sappers does Ukraine have now, and how many more need training?
Tymur Pistriuha: I think it's necessary to count certified demining operators and then determine the number each has within the demining team. If I'm not mistaken, we have 20 such operators registered today. However, it's important to consider the types of tasks they are certified for. Most of them have the right to educate the public about the risks of explosive objects. This is also crucial but doesn't allow them to engage in territory clearance. In Ukraine, only 8 operators are certified for such work. Unfortunately, that's not enough.
Latifundist.com: Regarding the demining prices, let's explain to the farmers what factors influence them.
Andriy Demianovych: Look, the cost of demining on two fields with confirmed contamination will differ. Why? Because on this field, we have 10 anti-tank and 500 anti-personnel mines, and on the second one — a line of anti-tank mines. Technical surveys will be conducted in both fields, but the clearance process will be different. And this will directly impact the final cost.
Latifundist.com: When they say humanitarian demining costs $3-5 per square meter, what does it mean?
Tymur Pistriuha: It means how much it costs the end user to clear one square meter of the field. That includes the entire process—from technical survey to humanitarian demining, land transfer, and quality control.
Latifundist.com: At what price are black sappers willing to demine?
Tymur Pistriuha: For $200 per hectare.
Latifundist.com: How developed is this market now?
Tymur Pistriuha: I personally don't monitor it. And, probably, law enforcement agencies should deal with it. As a demining operator, this market doesn't press on us. But as a Ukrainian, it saddens me that it still exists.
International organizations emphasize that Ukraine is a highly intelligent country. When they say that it takes 10 years of demining for each year of war, they are saying, "No. We believe that Ukraine will find a solution to do it as quickly as possible." And this will be a very successful case indeed. But when tractor drivers are still getting blown up by mines, questions arise: who led them to that field, and did black sappers work there? Probably, they did.
Andriy Demianovych: I would like to add that farmers also need to understand that black sappers only inspect the field. They do not survey forest belts and field roads because they are not paid for that. In two years, a child will be running along this road to take photos in a sunflower field. It turns out that now you rushed, saved money, and in two years, it led to the death of this child.
Latifundist.com: Yes, this needs to be acknowledged. Is a black sapper someone from the streets or a former military person?
Tymur Pistriuha: It happens that it is a specialist from a certain state structure authorized to participate in operational response activities. They go on planned vacation or vacation at their own expense and they join the team that has assembled to conduct demining. I know that some joined for noble reasons, especially when Kyiv and Chernihiv were liberated. These people wanted to help and didn't even take money for their work. But they didn't realize that they could harm by doing so.
Latifundist.com: Do you have cases in your practice where, after collaborating with black sappers, companies came to you and asked to survey the field again?
Andriy Demianovych: Certainly. We had a case in Kyiv region where a combine exploded in the field. The worst that could happen happened, and now let's work normally.
Tymur Pistriuha: A company that worked with black sappers approached us, and they paid them a considerable amount for it. The tractor driver detonated in the field but, luckily, remained alive.
By the way, starting next year, we will conduct a repeat non-technical survey. Why is it important? Because a repeat NTS allows us to change the status of areas that were once listed as potentially dangerous. And we already have such a positive case in Kyiv region.
Latifundist.com: How do you feel about farmers independently creating machines for demining?
Andriy Demianovych: A farmer can independently create such machines and demine on their own. However, firstly, this is illegal. Secondly, it is dangerous. Such a farmer puts his own life, the lives of his operators, and the community in general at risk. And I wouldn't want this to be extensively covered in the media because the whole world is watching. Yes, you're a clever person for making such a machine. But what is the price of this? What did you gain as a result? Well, you demined the field quickly. But the price of grain is below the cost, and you also risked the lives of your employees and people walking near the field.
Latifundist.com: Here, it seems there is also a question for the government. Recently, I was in Mykolaiv region, and the farmers complained that their fields near the Kakhovka Hydroelectric Power Station were mined and flooded due to the explosion of the dam, while the tax office asked for money, sometimes in advance. So, perhaps, this prompts them to turn to the black sappers, equip the machines themselves, and demine on their own.
Andriy Demianovych: It needs to be explained that only after a legal non-technical survey the land can be identified as contaminated, and then one can expect tax exemptions. Otherwise, the state will not believe you on your word. This year has shown quite well that those who took risks are forced now to sell grain for cash and face the same challenges they had before.
Latifundist.com: Alright, and what about drones that demine fields? It looks impressive in the picture.
Tymur Pistriuha: This word grates on me (laughs - ed.). Even when a sapper goes through with a metal detector, the field is not yet cleared. I'm all for innovation. And I'm for drones. However, we need to answer two questions. For what purpose? And what's next? If someone tells me that using drones for additional observation is a great idea for NTS, then we need to calculate how much this idea costs.
Andriy Demianovych: It's time. Figuratively speaking, to see an anti-tank mine with a Mavic drone, you have to fly 5-10 minutes. And we spend not only money but also time.
Tymur Pistriuha: So, it's one thing to have a large helicopter with a magnetometer and a bunch of other equipment, and another thing to have a drone, hire a team of operators, insure them, and pay their salaries. Okay, even if the price is the same as getting a helicopter, but the drone speeds up the work — then everything is great. But if it's many times more expensive and hardly affects the timeframe, then why bother?
Latifundist.com: The priority for demining. In your opinion, how to determine which lands of a particular enterprise need to be demined first?
Andriy Demianovych: In my opinion, this process should be transparent and based on a large volume of data. Figuratively speaking, we should have a complete picture of the field: whether anything was sown here, whether anything was harvested, whether there were shelling, fires, trenches, or military vehicles on field roads. In order to know which lands to transfer for use after NTS as quickly and as much as possible.
Latifundist.com: You mentioned purely military factors. Shouldn't agricultural factors be taken into account? For example, the company was involved in irrigation or was the largest supplier of organic berries to the EU.
Andriy Demianovych: I think they should. But first, we need to justify why priority is given to such farms and not others. Because one farmer will say, "I have organic blackberries, and 100 people work for me, I really need it". Another has tomatoes, and a third invested $5 million in irrigation. The task of the state here is to become a mediator and establish rules. Because you can't please everyone.
Tymur Pistriuha: I think we are talking about the 2 billion UAH from the state budget allocated for demining services for the next year. I really like this idea. The only thing is, I don't quite understand how they will select agrarians. But how the procedure will go further — that is clear. The idea is good, as long as there are no hitches along the way.
Latifundist.com: Thank you for the insightful conversation, and I hope that next year when we meet again, you will tell us that you have less work.
Tymur Pistriuha: Let there be even more work. And let it be associated with our Victory and the return of 603.7 square kilometers to Ukraine.
Kostiantyn Tkachenko, Natalia Rodak, Latifundist.com